Born: June 9, 1972
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June 19, 2003 at 7:09 pm
Familial past (life post-cult)...
I find it hard to believe that after so many years of being on the Internet, I have never done a web-search on the Local Church — a cult that my family (and my wife‘s family) once belonged to. I don’t think that I ever had reservations about doing a search on the subject, but I guess that it just never crossed my mind. Anyway, last night Julianna and I were hanging out with our Impact Group and we recounted a little bit of our upbringing in the Local Church. While doing so, my interests of doing a web-search were spurred. (The picture to the left is of my family, shortly before leaving the Local Church.)
Of course, there are many sites that promote this cult (if you’d like to read a shocking piece about how the Local Church has been able to “take over” various sectors of Internet media, click here — look for the red letters that read “Consumer Alert” ), but they are easy to sift through. After I modified my search string, I was on the right track (curiously, I couldn’t find any pictures of Local Church members — only of Witness Lee and Watchman Nee).
One link I found, at the Cult Awareness & Information Centre (sorry the links no longer worked, TS 12/17/04), in Australia, seemed like it would have been a pretty good resource, but most of the content about the Local Church was removed due to “copyright issues.” Still, it is a pretty good resource for information on cults in general and they say that they are writing some new, original information about the Local Church.
Then, I found the “Local Church” Information Site. The first page says this:
Based in Anaheim, California and founded by the late Chinese-American preacher Witness Lee (pictured), the “Local Church” movement has for the past thirty years been spreading a unique variant of Christianity across the globe. Its beliefs and practices are considered by many to be aberrant and cultic; however, despite some negative publicity, the movement continues to grow, especially on United States college campuses.
The purpose for this site is to provide a free Internet-based library of information and research materials on the “Local Church” of Witness Lee, along with personal testimonies, essays, and web links.
To me, this introduction almost makes it sound like the website is pro-Local Church (or, at least, neutral), but in actuality, it turns out to be another cult-awareness site. There are a number of resources available here, most noteably some essays and stories that literally give me the chills. Mike Muno wrote one account (somewhat poorly edited), that is a devastating tale of how the Local Church forced him to stop believing in God altogether. In aother story, Daniel Azuma writes about how he found the Local Church, how he left it, and how he recovered to remain a solid believer. While my family was a part of this cult at a much earlier time, we still went through a lot of the things described in these stories.
There is too much for me to go into on this subject. Our families have not been a part of the Local Church since around 1979, but I guess I still have a lot of emotion wrapped up in it (it’s one thing to say that you were in a cult and completely another to find out that almost every web-reference that you find says that it is a cult!). I may post some more after I finish reading (and thinking on) the stories from the aforementioned website. (If you’re interested, visit Watchman.org, a website dealing specifically with cults and cult awareness.)
As a final note: DO NOT buy any publications from Living Stream Ministry. They are a publishing company started by Witness Lee in order to publish books for and by the Local Church.
Update: I’ts March 29, 2005 and there seems to be some renewed interest about these issues on the web. Check out the following two Wikipedia links for more information:
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Comments (31)
I am a former local church member
» Comment by TR () , on November 02, 2003 at 12:42 pm
Hi! This is the Daniel Azuma mentioned above. I stumbled on this page by accident during one of my periodic web searches for “Local Church” related material. Sorry the links to Mike’s and my stories are currently broken. I had to reorganize the web site to make it more maintainable. They’re still there: just go to the main site (http://www.lcinfo.org) and navigate into writings, then testimonies. I’m glad to hear you’ve stuck with your faith through the ordeal. I also have heard too many stories of people fleeing God because of what the “Local Church” did to them. Hang in there and make an Impact! =)
Daniel
Daniel
» Comment by Daniel Azuma () (URL), on November 14, 2003 at 6:29 pm
I also have a family member that is in the Local Church movement. I belive it’s a cult. What good Christian church would completely change a person to alienate & lie to their family and leave a fiance of 8 years???
We try to write to church after church for help to know what to do, but get no answer. We called the local police and they won’t help. What can a family do?
We try to write to church after church for help to know what to do, but get no answer. We called the local police and they won’t help. What can a family do?
» Comment by CR () , on December 01, 2003 at 9:38 pm
I am a current member of the local church, a “church kid” who has been with them since birth. Right now I’m looking into all the information available that accuses the local church of cultish beliefs and also writings that defend them, to try and get a balanced view.
I can’t say that I have made a decision, but I do know that at least a few of their beliefs and practices are wrong. Wrong enough for me to leave? Wrong enough for the local church to be considered an evil cult? I’m still not sure about that.
I haven’t seen very many people alienated from their families in the local churches. I would not say I have been brainwashed. I agree that there is an unneccessary superiority complex, and some debatable doctrine. But if there was anything going on that would warrant calling the police it hasn’t gone on within my range of sight or lifetime, and I have traveled to many churches in this country and throughout the world in my twenty-one years.
I can’t say that I have made a decision, but I do know that at least a few of their beliefs and practices are wrong. Wrong enough for me to leave? Wrong enough for the local church to be considered an evil cult? I’m still not sure about that.
I haven’t seen very many people alienated from their families in the local churches. I would not say I have been brainwashed. I agree that there is an unneccessary superiority complex, and some debatable doctrine. But if there was anything going on that would warrant calling the police it hasn’t gone on within my range of sight or lifetime, and I have traveled to many churches in this country and throughout the world in my twenty-one years.
» Comment by manchld () (URL), on January 20, 2004 at 12:37 pm
Ing,
I must advise you that your comment was not on Daniel Azuma’s website, but mine. You can find Daniel at http://www.lcinfo.org/.. My site is purely personal and has nothing to do with the promotion or defamation of the Local Church (as does Daniel’s). I do not know Daniel except through one e-mail and his writings. He so graciously allowed me to include an excerpt of what he said on my website. My family left the Local Church sometime around 1982. I do not think that you know me or my family. Please direct all inquiries to Daniel if you have anything to say to him.
I have also written you a more personal e-mail to the e-mail address that you provided.
I must advise you that your comment was not on Daniel Azuma’s website, but mine. You can find Daniel at http://www.lcinfo.org/.. My site is purely personal and has nothing to do with the promotion or defamation of the Local Church (as does Daniel’s). I do not know Daniel except through one e-mail and his writings. He so graciously allowed me to include an excerpt of what he said on my website. My family left the Local Church sometime around 1982. I do not think that you know me or my family. Please direct all inquiries to Daniel if you have anything to say to him.
I have also written you a more personal e-mail to the e-mail address that you provided.
» Comment by timsamoff () (URL), on January 29, 2004 at 07:36 am
Thanks very much for this very informative article full of links. At university where I go I almost got involved with people from the local church group. At first I decided to check them out despite the warnings of my friends. Of course the church members are nice people and all and honestly believe in God, however, the warnings of my friends were confirmed later when I understood that the people who recruited me were not honest with me on the nature of their church and their group. Whenever they tell you why they do something they claim IT IS the only way to do it. For example they always pray out loud, almost scream Jesus in front of everybody. That is another strategy of cultic practices. Its done to create some sort of lack of boundaries between members and make it all communal. Its as if they want to pray not to God but to other church members.
But above is just a small aspect of their practice, which in itself may not be wrong to many people. What is most frightening to me and my Christian friends is that these people claim that worshipping God their way is the only way, and some of my friends arent even aware of some of the churches doctrines. They just go there and say that it feels good there and that the people are “very friendly”
Another aspect in their group that I find disturbing is that they do not simply follow the Bible, but instead they follow the teachings of their leader Watchman Lee. They believe that what he wrote in his writings is the way Christianity is ought to be practiced instead of focusing on their personal experiences with God through the Bible.
A couple of my friends go to this group and I tried to reason with them and told them they should be aware of what many scholars and theologians believe to be a cult. I didnt even tell them blatantly to leave the group, but just told them to ask more questions and check for themselves. I told my friends to visit other churches once in a while to get a different perspective. My fears were confirmed when my friends replied saying that their church is good, and that everything everyone says against it is slander, and basically became really defensive.
That is truly scary because they think they know everything and refuse to simply reevaluate their views for a short time at least.
Of course, I may be wrong thinking that there is danger in attending the Local Church group, however, but I also realize that I and many people who put their time in researchign this group may be right.
Let us hope that everything will be ok.
But above is just a small aspect of their practice, which in itself may not be wrong to many people. What is most frightening to me and my Christian friends is that these people claim that worshipping God their way is the only way, and some of my friends arent even aware of some of the churches doctrines. They just go there and say that it feels good there and that the people are “very friendly”
Another aspect in their group that I find disturbing is that they do not simply follow the Bible, but instead they follow the teachings of their leader Watchman Lee. They believe that what he wrote in his writings is the way Christianity is ought to be practiced instead of focusing on their personal experiences with God through the Bible.
A couple of my friends go to this group and I tried to reason with them and told them they should be aware of what many scholars and theologians believe to be a cult. I didnt even tell them blatantly to leave the group, but just told them to ask more questions and check for themselves. I told my friends to visit other churches once in a while to get a different perspective. My fears were confirmed when my friends replied saying that their church is good, and that everything everyone says against it is slander, and basically became really defensive.
That is truly scary because they think they know everything and refuse to simply reevaluate their views for a short time at least.
Of course, I may be wrong thinking that there is danger in attending the Local Church group, however, but I also realize that I and many people who put their time in researchign this group may be right.
Let us hope that everything will be ok.
» Comment by Yuriy () (URL), on February 02, 2004 at 3:02 pm
kokinglee@yahoo.com
210.187.44.34
http://
DATE: 01/29/2004 12:15:46 AM
Hi Daniel Azuma, It sound funny that since you and your family with Local Church for so long….you and your family never think to leave even any reason, till one day when you do searches for “Local Church” and discover that it list by someone as cult church.You start to question and finally your faith is became weeks and after leave the Local Church. In you statement it sound that from the begining you didn’t know what you believe and just simply follow other, it really unmature thinking. I think that now you posting this website also because of unmature thinking. May Lord Jesus save you mind and open your inner eye.
210.187.44.34
http://
DATE: 01/29/2004 12:15:46 AM
Hi Daniel Azuma, It sound funny that since you and your family with Local Church for so long….you and your family never think to leave even any reason, till one day when you do searches for “Local Church” and discover that it list by someone as cult church.You start to question and finally your faith is became weeks and after leave the Local Church. In you statement it sound that from the begining you didn’t know what you believe and just simply follow other, it really unmature thinking. I think that now you posting this website also because of unmature thinking. May Lord Jesus save you mind and open your inner eye.
» Comment by Ing , on February 12, 2004 at 1:23 pm
In reading the above responses, some things need to be pointed out.
1) This cult the Local Church does not agree with Watchman Nee’s Little Flock (which has nothing to do with the Local Church), and they create false writings said to be Nee’s, and alter his writings. Only trust CFP THE COMPLETE WORKS of Watchman Nee, and discern they are excellent! Line by line, paragraph by paragraph. Only read the white covers. Do not read anything by Witness Lee for he is constantly trying to introduce modalism, self-deification, God-man talk, shouting, and he focuses on the outerman not reaching the inner spirit. It is all carnal and of the flesh. Nee as osas arminian, and Witness Lee was calvinist. Watchman Nee had no error to speak of, but Witness Lee had lots of errors. Witness Lee even altered what Watchman Nee wrote about partial rapture among other things noted at the Misreading Nee page,
www3.telus.net/trbrooks/1st_rapture.htm
2)Daniel Azuma has his own set of problems as well as noted here very specifically,
www3.telus.net/trbrooks/Daniel_Azuma.htm
3)Biblical locality is God’s will, but not locality according to central hub of lsm/lc product sales.
http://www3.telus.net/trbrooks/bodyofchr..
4) Here is a brutal alteration of Watchman Nee’s writings by Witness Lee,
http://www3.telus.net/trbrooks/Spiritual..
1) This cult the Local Church does not agree with Watchman Nee’s Little Flock (which has nothing to do with the Local Church), and they create false writings said to be Nee’s, and alter his writings. Only trust CFP THE COMPLETE WORKS of Watchman Nee, and discern they are excellent! Line by line, paragraph by paragraph. Only read the white covers. Do not read anything by Witness Lee for he is constantly trying to introduce modalism, self-deification, God-man talk, shouting, and he focuses on the outerman not reaching the inner spirit. It is all carnal and of the flesh. Nee as osas arminian, and Witness Lee was calvinist. Watchman Nee had no error to speak of, but Witness Lee had lots of errors. Witness Lee even altered what Watchman Nee wrote about partial rapture among other things noted at the Misreading Nee page,
www3.telus.net/trbrooks/1st_rapture.htm
2)Daniel Azuma has his own set of problems as well as noted here very specifically,
www3.telus.net/trbrooks/Daniel_Azuma.htm
3)Biblical locality is God’s will, but not locality according to central hub of lsm/lc product sales.
http://www3.telus.net/trbrooks/bodyofchr..
4) Here is a brutal alteration of Watchman Nee’s writings by Witness Lee,
http://www3.telus.net/trbrooks/Spiritual..
» Comment by Troy Brooks () (URL), on March 28, 2005 at 9:05 pm
Thanks for your comments, Troy… This journey is multi-faceted and requires many views. They will all be different — because personal experience is different — but they are all crucial to acheive a well-rounded picture.
» Comment by timsamoff () (URL), on March 29, 2005 at 07:45 am
I don’t like that comment of yours because we should not embrace false experiences due to false teachings because of what Christ said Matt. 7.13-14. Such false experiences not by the Holy Spirit are not needed, nor are they well-rounded.
» Comment by Troy Brooks () (URL), on March 29, 2005 at 12:41 pm
If you read more of my Weblog, Troy, you probably wouldn’t agree with many of my viewpoints… Which is fine. But, that is how God created us, isn’t it? We’re all individuals on a journey through creation with a bent towards a Creator of some sort. Those of us who find the true God, it seems, are the lucky ones, but I don’t know if I’m totally convinced that that’s the end of the story.
And even believers are individuals. What believers do have in common, though, is the Holy Spirit — the Helper that will guide us through the “gate.”
Sure there might be false teachings and false doctrine (as you and I have experienced), but there are never false experiences… Experiences are very real and they occur for us to learn from. They are part of that same unfolding story.
In any case, there are always a lot of little aspects about our lives and our faith that we can nitpick, but I don’t know if any of them are actually eternally beneficial. The gospel does not get stuck on minutiae — it is a broad stroke full of grace, love, and redemption. God’s actions were huge (for all humankind). Our response need only to…respond.
While the LC may be wrong in its practices (as may be others who have decided to stay or leave), judgments from us (humankind) can only ever be subjective. The righteous and true judgment comes only from one: our Creator. In this case, I feel like it is our job to strive to love those people as God’s sheep (whether they are lost or found).
The Spirit helps us to discern. But discernment is a personal process. All we can do is listen and trust. The Spirit is much stronger than anything we could ever possibly say. Trust that we’re not the only ones who respond.
And even believers are individuals. What believers do have in common, though, is the Holy Spirit — the Helper that will guide us through the “gate.”
Sure there might be false teachings and false doctrine (as you and I have experienced), but there are never false experiences… Experiences are very real and they occur for us to learn from. They are part of that same unfolding story.
In any case, there are always a lot of little aspects about our lives and our faith that we can nitpick, but I don’t know if any of them are actually eternally beneficial. The gospel does not get stuck on minutiae — it is a broad stroke full of grace, love, and redemption. God’s actions were huge (for all humankind). Our response need only to…respond.
While the LC may be wrong in its practices (as may be others who have decided to stay or leave), judgments from us (humankind) can only ever be subjective. The righteous and true judgment comes only from one: our Creator. In this case, I feel like it is our job to strive to love those people as God’s sheep (whether they are lost or found).
The Spirit helps us to discern. But discernment is a personal process. All we can do is listen and trust. The Spirit is much stronger than anything we could ever possibly say. Trust that we’re not the only ones who respond.
» Comment by timsamoff () (URL), on March 29, 2005 at 1:02 pm
P.S. The Wikipedia has a great rundown of the “Local Church Controversy” here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Local_Churc..
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Local_Churc..
» Comment by timsamoff () (URL), on March 29, 2005 at 1:18 pm
God did not create us so different as to be universalistic. Not everyone who says they have the Holy Spirit has the Holy Spirit.
Human judgment is not limited to subjectiveness. That is an untruth. Human judgment if in agreement with the Holy Spirit can be very objective.
Therefore, your comments are not very loving towards the truth. It is not that the truth is unreasonable but that it is unloved. Remember, humility is a godly trait. I was never involved in a cult so easily like you were. I never got involved in any such cults.
- after reading the questions, the statements on both sides LSM and Harvest House), and various other items, I have come to the conclusion that the Local Church and LSM are a demonic organization out for power and control. The petty self has run amuck, but it is not just the petty self; also, they have no grounds, no basis for suing Harvest House. If LSM gets one dime, then that is the god of this world who is Satan that has had some vain bizarre unholy victory.
- notice below, that The Local Church and LSM do not believe in Christianity, therefore, they are not Christians; that is, not born again and redeemed by Christ’s death on the cross for they (1) accuse the body of Christ of being in a “dead religion” in Christians worshipping God of the Bible; that (2) God’s children are in a “human religion saturated with demonic and satanic things”; today, (3) the term economy is related to economics, not the body of Christ, for Watchman Nee used this term “divine economy” but once or twice, yet it is used so profusely by lsm/lc it is out of control becoming a dead phrase in their lsm/lc hearts and a point of false pride; (4) religion is the worship of a god, preferably God of the Bible unto salvation, yet the lsm/lc cult admits they are not “bound by any kind of religion”, thus, not worshipping God, admittedly – “not even to Christianity” in Christ – and “in as much as Christianity is a religion” (which it is, God’s redemptive design), LSM and the Local Church and Witness Lee admit they “have nothing to do with it”; and (5) they hate Christ for they said “Christianity is not Christ Himself” even though Christianity is the corporate Christ, that is, the universal church and body of Christ fellowshipping in localities.
http://www3.telus.net/trbrooks/harvestho..
Human judgment is not limited to subjectiveness. That is an untruth. Human judgment if in agreement with the Holy Spirit can be very objective.
Therefore, your comments are not very loving towards the truth. It is not that the truth is unreasonable but that it is unloved. Remember, humility is a godly trait. I was never involved in a cult so easily like you were. I never got involved in any such cults.
- after reading the questions, the statements on both sides LSM and Harvest House), and various other items, I have come to the conclusion that the Local Church and LSM are a demonic organization out for power and control. The petty self has run amuck, but it is not just the petty self; also, they have no grounds, no basis for suing Harvest House. If LSM gets one dime, then that is the god of this world who is Satan that has had some vain bizarre unholy victory.
- notice below, that The Local Church and LSM do not believe in Christianity, therefore, they are not Christians; that is, not born again and redeemed by Christ’s death on the cross for they (1) accuse the body of Christ of being in a “dead religion” in Christians worshipping God of the Bible; that (2) God’s children are in a “human religion saturated with demonic and satanic things”; today, (3) the term economy is related to economics, not the body of Christ, for Watchman Nee used this term “divine economy” but once or twice, yet it is used so profusely by lsm/lc it is out of control becoming a dead phrase in their lsm/lc hearts and a point of false pride; (4) religion is the worship of a god, preferably God of the Bible unto salvation, yet the lsm/lc cult admits they are not “bound by any kind of religion”, thus, not worshipping God, admittedly – “not even to Christianity” in Christ – and “in as much as Christianity is a religion” (which it is, God’s redemptive design), LSM and the Local Church and Witness Lee admit they “have nothing to do with it”; and (5) they hate Christ for they said “Christianity is not Christ Himself” even though Christianity is the corporate Christ, that is, the universal church and body of Christ fellowshipping in localities.
http://www3.telus.net/trbrooks/harvestho..
» Comment by Troy Brooks () (URL), on March 29, 2005 at 5:55 pm
Troy,
> God did not create us so different
> as to be universalistic.
Nor did I say that. All I said was that we were created as individuals.
> Not everyone who says they have the
> Holy Spirit has the Holy Spirit.
This is not ours to judge, but God’s alone. Affiliations and doctrine are but a small part of the relationship with Jesus Christ. I probably know as many unchurched people who are genuinely filled with the Holy Spirit as I do churched people.
> Human judgment is not limited to
> subjectiveness. That is an untruth.
I disagree.
> Human judgment if in agreement with
> the Holy Spirit can be very objective.
I agree, but I call it “discernment,” not judgment… And this is something that is very personal (1 Cor. 8).
> Therefore, your comments are not very
> loving towards the truth.
On the contrary… I love the truth and I love the fact that I am coming to it of my own accord, guided by God, His Spirit, the Word, and my own experiences.
> It is not that the truth is
> unreasonable but that it is unloved.
To tell you the truth, I don’t get this really. Sorry.
> Remember, humility is a godly trait.
> I was never involved in a cult so easily
> like you were. I never got involved in
> any such cults.
Why does this sound more like a superiority complex than humility? I am not here to say that anyone is wrong or right, but only to point out that which I have experienced. I point no fingers and place no blame. I just thank God that I (as well as others) have been able to carry on a normal God-loving life after these experiences. We should not be condemning those who have left the LC, but praising God that they have.
In any case, if you had read the account of my experiences more closely, you would see that it is not I who joined the LC, but my parents… I was but a child when they left. I thank God that they had the experience and that they were able to leave. I thank God even more that they love Him and serve Him with every bit of their beings.
Now, concerning your “experiences” with the LC… Honestly, I thought you had more to go on than just what you’ve read. This is a bit disheatening to me. How can you expect to play a vital role in the exposure of the LC when you are so critical to those who have left? I don’t fault you for having never been involved with the LC — it’s fine that you have concluded that they are “evil” — but what do you hope to gain by speaking negatively of those who are on your side? (First with Daniel Azuma — as I have read on your site — and now with me.) It seems very counter-productive.
While the LC may be people who have been led astray — and may even be living a “demonic” life, as you would say — they are still God’s children and must be loved as such. No one will take you seriously if your goal is only to shame them.
I appreciate the work you have put into exposing the LC, Troy, but there is a tone of sarcasm and mean-spiritedness in some of the things you have written.
Feel free to continue your discourse. I pray that God will guide you in a way that is loving and generous and focused on His Kingdom.
> God did not create us so different
> as to be universalistic.
Nor did I say that. All I said was that we were created as individuals.
> Not everyone who says they have the
> Holy Spirit has the Holy Spirit.
This is not ours to judge, but God’s alone. Affiliations and doctrine are but a small part of the relationship with Jesus Christ. I probably know as many unchurched people who are genuinely filled with the Holy Spirit as I do churched people.
> Human judgment is not limited to
> subjectiveness. That is an untruth.
I disagree.
> Human judgment if in agreement with
> the Holy Spirit can be very objective.
I agree, but I call it “discernment,” not judgment… And this is something that is very personal (1 Cor. 8).
> Therefore, your comments are not very
> loving towards the truth.
On the contrary… I love the truth and I love the fact that I am coming to it of my own accord, guided by God, His Spirit, the Word, and my own experiences.
> It is not that the truth is
> unreasonable but that it is unloved.
To tell you the truth, I don’t get this really. Sorry.
> Remember, humility is a godly trait.
> I was never involved in a cult so easily
> like you were. I never got involved in
> any such cults.
Why does this sound more like a superiority complex than humility? I am not here to say that anyone is wrong or right, but only to point out that which I have experienced. I point no fingers and place no blame. I just thank God that I (as well as others) have been able to carry on a normal God-loving life after these experiences. We should not be condemning those who have left the LC, but praising God that they have.
In any case, if you had read the account of my experiences more closely, you would see that it is not I who joined the LC, but my parents… I was but a child when they left. I thank God that they had the experience and that they were able to leave. I thank God even more that they love Him and serve Him with every bit of their beings.
Now, concerning your “experiences” with the LC… Honestly, I thought you had more to go on than just what you’ve read. This is a bit disheatening to me. How can you expect to play a vital role in the exposure of the LC when you are so critical to those who have left? I don’t fault you for having never been involved with the LC — it’s fine that you have concluded that they are “evil” — but what do you hope to gain by speaking negatively of those who are on your side? (First with Daniel Azuma — as I have read on your site — and now with me.) It seems very counter-productive.
While the LC may be people who have been led astray — and may even be living a “demonic” life, as you would say — they are still God’s children and must be loved as such. No one will take you seriously if your goal is only to shame them.
I appreciate the work you have put into exposing the LC, Troy, but there is a tone of sarcasm and mean-spiritedness in some of the things you have written.
Feel free to continue your discourse. I pray that God will guide you in a way that is loving and generous and focused on His Kingdom.
» Comment by timsamoff () (URL), on March 29, 2005 at 7:55 pm
I have preserved a response for you here so that you may refer to it from time to time to help deliver you from your negative behavior pattern,
http://www3.telus.net/trbrooks/timsamoff..
May these mistaken assumptions that you make and your blaming accusations and your need to bear false witness all die on the cross; and especially this doublemindedness of saying not to judge, and then judging. That is a not abiding in Matthew 7.1.
http://www3.telus.net/trbrooks/timsamoff..
May these mistaken assumptions that you make and your blaming accusations and your need to bear false witness all die on the cross; and especially this doublemindedness of saying not to judge, and then judging. That is a not abiding in Matthew 7.1.
» Comment by Troy Brooks () (URL), on March 30, 2005 at 12:57 am
Tim:
Please ask Troy Brooks not to converse on your website anymore. He has been banned from several boards regarding this same issue, has several web pages dedicated to spouting rivers of just words regarding same and in general clogging up the lines of communication for people who really have something to say.
In the interest of everyone here, especially you and your great effort to put yourself out there – please don’t let Troy waste your space.
Thanks,
ex-member
Please ask Troy Brooks not to converse on your website anymore. He has been banned from several boards regarding this same issue, has several web pages dedicated to spouting rivers of just words regarding same and in general clogging up the lines of communication for people who really have something to say.
In the interest of everyone here, especially you and your great effort to put yourself out there – please don’t let Troy waste your space.
Thanks,
ex-member
» Comment by dabi1966 () , on May 06, 2005 at 12:16 am
Thanks, Dabi… I’ve e-mailed you a response directly.
» Comment by timsamoff () (URL), on May 06, 2005 at 08:07 am
Please avoid Tim’s site for he has some serious false teachings as has been recorded here. Instead of stopping at Tim Samoff’s short quip and declaration of self, investigate Tim’s false teachings.
In the link provided just read through the conversation here on Tim’s site that I have had with him to see for yourself, to see where he is in error (unless of course Tim has removed the posts, though I have preserved it on my pages at http://www3.telus.net/trbrooks/Misreadin..).
Tim may look for excuse, with those that may agree with such false teachings, even banning and taking pleasure in censoring, but such actions are considered of no account. We should expect such actions against members of the body of Christ.
Let us pray for Tim that he read this link to help him. Praise the Lord, Amen!
Tim Edit by Tim Samoff – I don’t know why he signed this as “Tim.”
In the link provided just read through the conversation here on Tim’s site that I have had with him to see for yourself, to see where he is in error (unless of course Tim has removed the posts, though I have preserved it on my pages at http://www3.telus.net/trbrooks/Misreadin..).
Tim may look for excuse, with those that may agree with such false teachings, even banning and taking pleasure in censoring, but such actions are considered of no account. We should expect such actions against members of the body of Christ.
Let us pray for Tim that he read this link to help him. Praise the Lord, Amen!
Tim Edit by Tim Samoff – I don’t know why he signed this as “Tim.”
» Comment by Troy Brooks () (URL), on May 11, 2005 at 6:36 pm
On Troy’s page http://www3.telus.net/trbrooks/timsamoff..
Observe these comments:
“Tim is unable to shake off old lsm/lc behavior patterns. Why does someone vaguely blame (like Satan the great accuser)? It is because they have some false doctrine (untruth) in their heart that manifests itself in passing responsibility unto others.”
This seems like a very reasonable assessment.
Can not the same be said of dabi1966, for dabi1966 is similarly blaming in vain for what purpose? Can it not be that he has some false doctrine to directly attack Troy Brooks? It would seem most likely, whether this is actually Tim Samoff or not, the principle holds the same why people behave this way.
Observe these comments:
“Tim is unable to shake off old lsm/lc behavior patterns. Why does someone vaguely blame (like Satan the great accuser)? It is because they have some false doctrine (untruth) in their heart that manifests itself in passing responsibility unto others.”
This seems like a very reasonable assessment.
Can not the same be said of dabi1966, for dabi1966 is similarly blaming in vain for what purpose? Can it not be that he has some false doctrine to directly attack Troy Brooks? It would seem most likely, whether this is actually Tim Samoff or not, the principle holds the same why people behave this way.
» Comment by dabi1967 - This is actually Troy Brooks , on May 11, 2005 at 7:42 pm
Tim’s playing games. Notice in the post just above the immediate post, Tim edited my post, and signed it with his name. Strange eh? Looks like he cut something off there. You shouldn’t play with other peoples’ posts for that is sinning bearing false witness.
» Comment by Troy () (URL), on June 10, 2005 at 02:55 am
It sounds to me like you just picked up and left without any fellowship or discussion with some leading brothers. And like that one brother said, it sounds like you didn’t even know what you believed. I’m 18 years old and have been involved with the “local church” for almost a year now. Before I started to attend the meeting I knew about them being called a cult, and even at one time opposed them. But hey after studying the faith and looking at views from all different sides (except for Troy Brooks’ because he thinks he is the all-knowing God) I finally concluded that this is the Lord’s way and heart desire (now I’m NOT saying that it is the only way and everyone else is going to Hell). I now attend the Church in Raleigh and I drive almost 2 hours to my locality. Also people I wouldn’t even pay the few seconds to read any of Troy Brooks’ post because from the sounds of it he thinks he has it all figured out and Stephen Kaung or Witness are absolutely wrong. In fact Troy is so positive that he is right, he has the leadway to say that someone is “unregenerated” or that they are not saved.
Anyways Brother Tim (and anyone else who has left), I just recommend that you consider looking at things from another side, possibly going back and fellowshipping with some brothers. If not, then that is your choice and between you and God. Keep an open mind.
Love in Christ
Grace with all your spirits
Brother Malcolm
Anyways Brother Tim (and anyone else who has left), I just recommend that you consider looking at things from another side, possibly going back and fellowshipping with some brothers. If not, then that is your choice and between you and God. Keep an open mind.
Love in Christ
Grace with all your spirits
Brother Malcolm
» Comment by Malcolm Meetze () , on August 16, 2005 at 06:59 am
Comment Deleted ~ TS
» Comment by frfrr () (URL), on August 16, 2005 at 4:40 pm
what in the wide wide world of sports is going on here?! Holy macral!
» Comment by dennisthemenace () , on August 16, 2005 at 5:55 pm
Help for you.
http://www3.telus.net/trbrooks/timsamoff..
Realize Tim has his particular agenda and false teachings, just as Malcom has his own points of pride as documented here.
http://www3.telus.net/trbrooks/timsamoff..
Realize Tim has his particular agenda and false teachings, just as Malcom has his own points of pride as documented here.
» Comment by Parture () (URL), on August 20, 2005 at 4:59 pm
These are Malcom’s false teachings,
http://www3.telus.net/trbrooks/thaiv.htm
http://www3.telus.net/trbrooks/thaiv.htm
» Comment by Parture () (URL), on August 20, 2005 at 5:02 pm
Make note, do the censoring, I had to use this alternate email so that people could see the truth. Amen.
http://www3.telus.net/trbrooks/Misreadin..
Love, in Christ,
Troy
http://www3.telus.net/trbrooks/Misreadin..
Love, in Christ,
Troy
» Comment by Parture () (URL), on August 20, 2005 at 5:27 pm
Helpful words for the doubtful Texas student. Realize you are playing God Malcolm, for you are so young, and yet can’t let go of the 6+ sins of leeism, self-declaring them alright in your heart.
While Tim Samoff was raised up in the lsm/lc cult, I myself, never even attended one meeting. Praise the Lord! There is no need to attend a cult. Never thing you should.
Those in the lsm/lc cult system are not generally considered brothers in Christ, for Christians are not in cults. Though, there may be a few saved, as there is always an exception. With a little more spiritual knowledge they could be released from such bondage.
Realize, that in your attempts to look at the matter from all different sides still reveals you have not actually done so when the facts are presented within your own contradictory behavior and belief system as proven here, http://www3.telus.net/trbrooks/thaiv.htm
Your unsalvation is seen in your false fruit, contradictions, and overassuming.
Satan the false accuser that he is, is working in your spirit, accusing saying I am God, when of course I am not. God reveals your unsalvation Malcolm, and it is proven (see the link).
Another error you make is regarding driving to your locality. You do not drive to your locality. This is legalizing Biblical locality. A locality is a Biblical city, with elders over that entire city, so you are not to go to an outlet of the lsm/lc cult. But if you are a Christian you are the church and go to meeting places within a locality you reside, not to others. Discern who the elders are of your locality you reside in, for therein is proper authority, as they are selected by informal apostles. All Christians in a locality are the local church for that locality. If you were a Christian you should know your own locality is the local church, however disjoined it may be. What God wants you to accomplish, is fellowshipping according to Biblical locality so that you know the meeting place you are in is according to right apostles who select right elders and the meeting places under them are right too. The lsm/lc cult does not fulfill this condition. Hence, the need for a meeting place finder, http://www3.telus.net/trbrooks/bodyofchr..
Stephen Kaung did not believe in these 6+ sins of leeism. Don’t try to marry Stephen Kaung to Witness for Lee, for don’t you know the famous quote of Stephen Kaung, when he said, “Witness Lee went too far”. Don’t try to bear false witness to make your case. Don’t try to marry Watchman Nee with Witness Lee either, for Watchman Nee was of the little flock, Biblical locality, OSAS arminian, non-screamer, non-suer, non-modalist, never called himself God, while Witness Lee was of the Local Church, central hub locality, calvinist, screamer, suer, modalist, calling himself God, altered Nee’s writings for hate. They are diabolically polar opposites.
Often those who read all these errors of leeism, spend several hours at a time reading the Misreading Nee page. Those who can afford only a few seconds show their possession, particularly in speaking about those possessed by the demon of Leeism who controlled witness lee also. Again this is proven. As is the 6+ sins of leeism. All these things are proven. Self-declarations don’t count. See the proofs. Don’t be lazy Malcolm, being in the cult only one year now, totally unable to shake the demon of leeism.
Stephen Kaung is wrong in only one aspect that I am aware of, which is somewhat forgivable since almost no one in the world is abiding in Biblical locality, but Kaung is one person so close to Nee’s writings and should have seen it in the Word, that before Christ returns we have to get back to Biblical locality, which verily threatens Satan immensely.
I do not know everyone whether they are not saved or saved. I can only say what God has shown to me in my spirit, so that I do not overassume. By the attitude of Malcolm and his defending the 6+ sins of leeism, even calling Himself God defending Ron Kangas when Kangas said he is God, these are the false fruits we shall know them by to know Malcolm is not merely a possessed Christian that needs deliverance, for he has declared the law that the 6+ sins of leeism are acceptable. This is how his unsalvation is known. First by revelation in the spirit and communicated with understanding, proven substantially.
Malcolm defends the lsm/lc cult and the demon of leeism. He does not defend Christ.
While Tim Samoff was raised up in the lsm/lc cult, I myself, never even attended one meeting. Praise the Lord! There is no need to attend a cult. Never thing you should.
Those in the lsm/lc cult system are not generally considered brothers in Christ, for Christians are not in cults. Though, there may be a few saved, as there is always an exception. With a little more spiritual knowledge they could be released from such bondage.
Realize, that in your attempts to look at the matter from all different sides still reveals you have not actually done so when the facts are presented within your own contradictory behavior and belief system as proven here, http://www3.telus.net/trbrooks/thaiv.htm
Your unsalvation is seen in your false fruit, contradictions, and overassuming.
Satan the false accuser that he is, is working in your spirit, accusing saying I am God, when of course I am not. God reveals your unsalvation Malcolm, and it is proven (see the link).
Another error you make is regarding driving to your locality. You do not drive to your locality. This is legalizing Biblical locality. A locality is a Biblical city, with elders over that entire city, so you are not to go to an outlet of the lsm/lc cult. But if you are a Christian you are the church and go to meeting places within a locality you reside, not to others. Discern who the elders are of your locality you reside in, for therein is proper authority, as they are selected by informal apostles. All Christians in a locality are the local church for that locality. If you were a Christian you should know your own locality is the local church, however disjoined it may be. What God wants you to accomplish, is fellowshipping according to Biblical locality so that you know the meeting place you are in is according to right apostles who select right elders and the meeting places under them are right too. The lsm/lc cult does not fulfill this condition. Hence, the need for a meeting place finder, http://www3.telus.net/trbrooks/bodyofchr..
Stephen Kaung did not believe in these 6+ sins of leeism. Don’t try to marry Stephen Kaung to Witness for Lee, for don’t you know the famous quote of Stephen Kaung, when he said, “Witness Lee went too far”. Don’t try to bear false witness to make your case. Don’t try to marry Watchman Nee with Witness Lee either, for Watchman Nee was of the little flock, Biblical locality, OSAS arminian, non-screamer, non-suer, non-modalist, never called himself God, while Witness Lee was of the Local Church, central hub locality, calvinist, screamer, suer, modalist, calling himself God, altered Nee’s writings for hate. They are diabolically polar opposites.
Often those who read all these errors of leeism, spend several hours at a time reading the Misreading Nee page. Those who can afford only a few seconds show their possession, particularly in speaking about those possessed by the demon of Leeism who controlled witness lee also. Again this is proven. As is the 6+ sins of leeism. All these things are proven. Self-declarations don’t count. See the proofs. Don’t be lazy Malcolm, being in the cult only one year now, totally unable to shake the demon of leeism.
Stephen Kaung is wrong in only one aspect that I am aware of, which is somewhat forgivable since almost no one in the world is abiding in Biblical locality, but Kaung is one person so close to Nee’s writings and should have seen it in the Word, that before Christ returns we have to get back to Biblical locality, which verily threatens Satan immensely.
I do not know everyone whether they are not saved or saved. I can only say what God has shown to me in my spirit, so that I do not overassume. By the attitude of Malcolm and his defending the 6+ sins of leeism, even calling Himself God defending Ron Kangas when Kangas said he is God, these are the false fruits we shall know them by to know Malcolm is not merely a possessed Christian that needs deliverance, for he has declared the law that the 6+ sins of leeism are acceptable. This is how his unsalvation is known. First by revelation in the spirit and communicated with understanding, proven substantially.
Malcolm defends the lsm/lc cult and the demon of leeism. He does not defend Christ.
» Comment by Parture () (URL), on August 20, 2005 at 5:31 pm
Tim has many problems and false teachings too as noted here – http://www3.telus.net/trbrooks/timsamoff..
I recommend you keep an open mind, but do not think you can come to Christ with your mind or your talent. God won’t receive you this way for it is only by the spirit regeneration takes place. You need to come to Christ as a helpless sinner to receive Christ into your life authentically, not as the tares.
Malcolm, make note that you have misunderstood not only Tim’s problems, but you have also misrepresented these proofs given about the errors of leeism. You can’t keep standing in the middle of the fence for this will tear you apart. Either you call yourself God or you don’t. Either God is God and you are not, so don’t call yourself God. Don’t change the meaning of God on the fly. Satan is the author of confusion. Don’t be part of an organization that does this. The same goes for all 6+ sins of leeism, you can’t keep defending a false teaching (by being in the throws of such a cult) and then saying it is wrong. Don’t let the evil spirit win in your life like that.
Realize your selfish possessed self-declaration is not of God when you say “I finally concluded that this is the Lord’s way and heart desire”. You would not have all these errors if it was so; and notice the emphasis on “I”. This is the point of pride he falls on.
Praise the Lord for this discernment!
Thank you Jesus! Amen.
Love, in Christ,
Troy Brooks
I recommend you keep an open mind, but do not think you can come to Christ with your mind or your talent. God won’t receive you this way for it is only by the spirit regeneration takes place. You need to come to Christ as a helpless sinner to receive Christ into your life authentically, not as the tares.
Malcolm, make note that you have misunderstood not only Tim’s problems, but you have also misrepresented these proofs given about the errors of leeism. You can’t keep standing in the middle of the fence for this will tear you apart. Either you call yourself God or you don’t. Either God is God and you are not, so don’t call yourself God. Don’t change the meaning of God on the fly. Satan is the author of confusion. Don’t be part of an organization that does this. The same goes for all 6+ sins of leeism, you can’t keep defending a false teaching (by being in the throws of such a cult) and then saying it is wrong. Don’t let the evil spirit win in your life like that.
Realize your selfish possessed self-declaration is not of God when you say “I finally concluded that this is the Lord’s way and heart desire”. You would not have all these errors if it was so; and notice the emphasis on “I”. This is the point of pride he falls on.
Praise the Lord for this discernment!
Thank you Jesus! Amen.
Love, in Christ,
Troy Brooks
» Comment by Parture () (URL), on August 20, 2005 at 5:33 pm
Notice the large caps on the name “MALCOLM”. I don’t know who Thaiv is. Is that some code name you gave me? And I’m not from Texas… I’ve never even been to Texas! I don’t even go to college. I go to high school. Seems like you got more errors than anything else. I’m sorry you spent all that precious God-given time writing that page full of errors. But I also did find it a shame that you have never attended a meeting. That just shows poor research. If you want to make a page about me my name is MALCOLM, and I’m 18 years old, and I’m in high school. I got one question? Is this just a big joke? I personally think you are just a big practical joke Troy. I just wanted to tell you that your humor is lame.
Grace with you all,
Brother MALCOLM (also there are 2 “l“s in my name)
Grace with you all,
Brother MALCOLM (also there are 2 “l“s in my name)
» Comment by MALCOLM Meetze () , on August 22, 2005 at 07:57 am
I have decided to close the comments for this Blog post.
I’ve always considered my Weblog a place for peaceful and respectful dialog concerning a variety of different topics — even if the people commenting choose not to agree.
I have never censored or banned anyone from posting comments and I don’t plan on it in the future. This particular post, though, has caused quite a bit of dialog that goes against everything that I intended for this Weblog. Likewise, it has caused the continuation of bigotry and defamation on many other websites. Lastly, it has been spammed multiple times with hateful language (all which have been deleted).
I appreciate everyone who has posted in a loving manner, regardless of where you may be coming from. I have my own opinions about all of this, of course, but I also understand that we are all in different places in our walks with God.
May the Lord have mercy on us all.
I’ve always considered my Weblog a place for peaceful and respectful dialog concerning a variety of different topics — even if the people commenting choose not to agree.
I have never censored or banned anyone from posting comments and I don’t plan on it in the future. This particular post, though, has caused quite a bit of dialog that goes against everything that I intended for this Weblog. Likewise, it has caused the continuation of bigotry and defamation on many other websites. Lastly, it has been spammed multiple times with hateful language (all which have been deleted).
I appreciate everyone who has posted in a loving manner, regardless of where you may be coming from. I have my own opinions about all of this, of course, but I also understand that we are all in different places in our walks with God.
May the Lord have mercy on us all.
» Comment by timsamoff () (URL), on August 22, 2005 at 08:13 am
Paula