Tim Samoff // Weblog (old)

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I have to express my protest to such writings. He already revealed what his basis for his writings on the church is. Feelings. The most whimsical, distasterous and dangerous ground for basing your faith or any facet of it on. No one at my church laughs or smiles during worship. and I’m totally okay with that. I can attest for them and my membership of 10 plus years that niether of these emotions are deficient in their lives. Worship is touchy…I know cause I am one of the musicians that make it happen every Sunday. there is much debate over what songs are apropriate and the music style.. what role the musicians play.. all to protect the worship from being misrepresented as a time of entertainment. That the words express something biblical and true about God’s nature. That being said, music of anykind without feeling at all would abandon its purpose. But when someone like this starts validating a church’s worship based on his “feelings”... I have a big problem. And anyone that thinks we attend church for reasons outside of the fact that God commands it is fooling himself. I don’t go cause I want to, I go cause I want to be obedient. I may enjoy it and I do (sanctification at work, praise God) but my attendance is regular because I have a commitment. Not a feeling.

Dennisthemenace () - August 09, 2004 at 10:22 am

Dennis… I think you’re being fairly “stiff” about this subject and a little close-minded towards the concept of “feelings.”


First, the author of this excerpt is referring to his experience at the church, not the revelation of his faith… Big difference here. And I think “feelings” are a big part of church experiences — the fact that no one at your church laughs or smiles during worship is a huge part of the feelings that your church “generates” (it’s all about creating an environment where people can “feel” like they are at home — no matter the style of any particular church).


Second, did you read the rest of the report, or just the excerpt? I wouldn’t expect anyone who doesn’t attend our church to read the entire report (it is pretty long), but the excerpt is one that I picked out of many paragraphs and if any “basis” for a theme was created, it is my fault.


All this being said, I’d like to remind you that God created us as sensitive, tempormental, feeling humans beings. We thirst for what makes us feel good. We learn from what makes us feel bad. Feelings are integral to our faith, because our God has them himself (I could refer to many scriptures that describe God as being happy or sad over different events). Feelings are also, in fact, one of the ways that God communicates with us (I’m so glad for the many times that I didn’t do something because I had a bad feeling and the times I took opportunities because they felt good — thank you, God).


I used to be one to agree with what you are saying, Dennis, but over the last few years, I have come to appreciate my feelings — and, most definitely, the feelings that I get while reading the bible (try to argue your point with St. Ignatius on this one), attending church, hanging out with other believers. Feelings are crucial to my existence as a follower of Christ.

timsamoff () (URL) - August 09, 2004 at 11:12 am

Dennis – You believe that it’s dangerous to base any facet of one’s faith on feelings?


Are you’re saying that it’s beyond God’s power to allow us to get something back and to enjoy or feel something while we worship, serve and commune? And if so, is feeling those things an invalid reason to keep coming back?


When someone loves us, God in this case, shouldn’t we “feel” something or are we supposed to just accept it on an intellectual basis and only keep our knowledge of God in our head?


I shudder at the thought of worship without joy, laughter, smiles and even sometimes anguish and tears.


And call me a fool if you wish, but I’m in community with the people of my church because I want to be. I know and I feel, therefore I am.

todd () - August 09, 2004 at 11:23 am

Well, yes in a nutshell i do think our basis for the faith is knowledge. if it was fail safe by “feeling” certainly it wouldnt have to exist in written form. correct? I didnt read the entire report, but based on the exerpt and what ive actually heard of this author (my pastor has mentioned him a few times before)... i feel comofortable with my post. stiff? Perhaps though it might appear a flaw here. should we feel something when God loves us? my answer to that is not a simple no, but its a no. We may in fact feel something, and thats great. but to base our understanding or even the existence of that love on a feeling, is totally dangerous and unbiblical. I recall the night of my conversion and repentance… nothing. no lightning, no special glow… but there was my grief and tearful repentance. But that feeling was my RESPONSE to Christ, NOT my basis for it. And I would never assume that if someone didnt react the same way i felt, that their faith might be in question.. thats my argument here and with this particular author’s standard of assessment. Am I being understood here? you mention of being happy you didnt do something cause it felt bad or did cause it felt good… thats your conscience. as a Christian, likely its more “in tune” with what is good and bad… but feeling left to its own devices? think about the opposite. think about what Proverbs say all over about men and their passions. Imagine the times you might have done something cause it felt good.. but ended up being out of anger, impulse or jealousy. at least i know i have…maybe im less regenerate, haha. God relates to us in the Bible by expressing himself in scripture in ways we will emotionally understand. but to think that He feels the same way we do…that would be an error. I hope you see that. There is no comparison.. thats another topic and we can get into that. but nowhere does God act on feeling.. and being that we are imperfect beings, we should not presume we are permitted to react with the same authority or that we have the same feelings that He does. though it would STILL not be in the same context as He acts on His own mercy and character, not his feelings.


That my church “generates” anything, again is using a very … loose, undefined term. there is an apropriate time to “generate” laughter and smiles… and again, thats not to say that my church sits around smug and unhappy during our worship. Reverence is the key, not “stiffness”. Fellowship is good for smiles and laughter. Maybe the pastor says something that strikes the congregation as funny… no one gets the ruler on the topside of their hands or the “tisk tisk” look. Anyone here teach sunday school? i do. My class (junior high) is a fun class (hey, they have me after all) and there’s plenty of joking, laughs, joy being “generated”... however when the lesson is being executed, suddenly, laughing and joking while im talking is not so good. This is only more so in the service. its quite possible that im being misunderstood here, but maybe not. I appreciate the joys of laughter (tim’s known me for years, he can testify to this) and have had my share of grim life experiences (he can testify to that too). My point is not to disregard our feelings. but to keep them in check. Not allow them to be your basis for faith, good and bad, or assesing wether or not a church is performing its liturical duties and presenting the Gospel and our Lords commandments… thats just damaging. imagine those times when you felt God was not there… or others if you havent had that experience ( i know i have)... how wise i was to not trust that feeling? an outside source had to counter that feeling, right? knowledge. And yet, I feel very comforted by that knowledge. Anyone getting this? Beuller? Bueller? Sorry ive gone a bit long here.. Tim mentioned “we thirst for what makes us feel good… we learn from what makes us feel bad”. Well, the Bible tells us that our thirsts are to rebel against Him. I can return with scripture after scripture where man is being corrected or destroyed due to his passions. In and outside the church for what makes him feel good. because we are saved, you are implying we are exempt from such potential folly? hopefully not. no one said emotion is bad. im just saying its dangerous. and do we we really learn from what makes us feel bad? have you only sinned once? And Todd, I don’t know if you have ever taken a logic class (and i am not being insulting) but to assume you “are” because you “feel” and mix it with Shakespeare… Thats a whole other Blog! haha.. short version: Ever seen the Matrix? sensation doesn’t gaurantee anything. I don’t think you’re foolish and for praise God you attend church because you want to…my point is that even if you didn’t feel like it, you would not be exempt from the obligation. I thought I was clear.. Thats sanctification. But also you are arguing outside my original issue with feeling. I too love my congregation…probably the coolest Christians I’ve ever met. But what if I didnt? Could I just pass it up to go to the church of IHOP with my drinking buddies? you see my point. And I have no issue with people revealing emotion during worship, especially tears.. I still don’t get the laughter thing, but maybe Wierd Al does your Worship, I dunno. Joy? great. But if those are the things by which you gauge a church? some from a pentacostal backround might have issue with your church.. what then? would their accusation be valid? Because their “experience” wasn’t the same as yours? If I had my way, Our worship would be comprised of Slayer tunes but chances are, my congregation wouldn’t get the same “feeling”... Praise God for sanctification. I leave my distortion pedal at home. The point is this: is God’s word being preached? are his members communing with Him? do they treat eachother with respect and in love? do they offer worship that is reverent, acceptable AND yes, heartfelt from the congregation? Are his Commandments being preached? I just want to know how some guy in a trailer expects to validate that church’s practice because they “smile” during worship and he got some feeling. im sorry, but thats just… lame. I think of all the smiles i’ve seen at previous church’s during worship… and were made of plastic.

Dennisthemenace () - August 09, 2004 at 1:45 pm

Are you’re saying that it’s beyond God’s power to allow us to get something back and to enjoy or feel something while we worship, serve and commune? And if so, is feeling those things an invalid reason to keep coming back?


Todd, no. God’s power is not the issue. Its the deception of those emotions. And yes, I think feeling is an invalid reason for returning to a church. Should they be absent? hopefully not. But how do you suppose cults start, my friend? If serving and communing is really your concern, should YOUR feelings really play that large a role. I know a lot of people who want to go on mission trips… to New Zealand, Hawaii, the Bahamas… haha.

Dennisthemenace () - August 09, 2004 at 1:56 pm

Wow, Dennis…


My thoughts… Since the concensus is that we are made after God’s image, then, yes, I believe God has emotions. Does He “act” on His feelings? I think that it would be impossible for us to know — based on both our human-bound inabilities to comprehend Him fully and the fact that we live in completely incomparable “dimensions.”


Would we like to think that God doesn’t base His actions on emotions? Sure. But will never know that until we’re with Him… Look at all of the times that the world almost ended… God decided on these actions because He was grieved by His creations’ inability to love Him.


You are right to say that we cannot base our faith on feelings. But feelings can most definitely be an outcome of our faith. God is a creative, loving, merciful, jealous God… I could go on, but I don’t know if I’d be able to list all of the “emotions” that describe Him.


I like what you said here, Dennis:


“how wise i was to not trust that feeling? an outside source had to counter that feeling, right? knowledge. And yet, I feel very comforted by that knowledge.”


So, how can you trust the feeling of your comfort?


I’m not trying to throw it back at you, but only to display our sense of which feelings we choose to legitimize.


You also spoke of those times when you don’t feel like God is present… Man, what an important feeling that is. Seriously. I don’t know if I would ever be at the place I am today without inumerable times like that in my life. And, while I sure don’t like being in that place, I am always so thankful that I went through them.


The desert place, it’s called. I’ve threatened on writing about this in the past. One day, I will!


Lastly, you speak of our obligations to attend church. Huh?! Where is it written that church attendance is an obligation? I think fellowship with other believers is in there somewhere… Not going to church.


But, maybe that’s only my opinion.

timsamoff () (URL) - August 09, 2004 at 2:09 pm

Yes church attendance is an obligation. i will give scriptures in a few. We, as Christians use the clear scriptures to clarify the less clear.. we conclude. But yes, being that all the Gospels were preached to churches, the correction to those churches in error, constant references to as you said, fellowship. this didnt happen at starbucks. it didnt happen in a white stucko building obviously, either but being that for instance in Romans, much correction is mentioned about the conduct of others, etc. the Gospels.. they didn’t just hang out. They were attending services. I can get more on that.


And you missed and hit my point exactly at the same time, as contradictory as that may be. You aren’t throwing my words back at me, you’re asking for clarification. “How do you trust the feeling of your comfort?”. Precisely my point, my friend. I don’t. Ever. It is merely my emotional response. My comfort is a RESULT of what I am being told. The REAL question is how do i trust what i’m being told?! that is the question we should ask ourselves and prepare in response to the unregenerate! thats a whole new BLOG too, and plenty of Van Til (whom i still havent read), Augustine and others to aide us in that. But again, trusting that sense of comfort would be impossible because i could never obtain that comfort as its own source (am i being clear or making your eyes cross eyed?). But i can be assured that the comfort is valid because the Word tells me EVEN when I am not so comforted..


Church Attendance.. I’ll get some verses to you.. we’ll chat.


D-

Dennisthemenace () - August 09, 2004 at 3:39 pm

Hey bro. wow… i’ll try to be short (cause we all have work to do) but informative. Well, lets first begin by saying that i in now way enforce the idea that those not attending church are not saved. but i am arguing that they are in rebellion of a major teaching ALL over scripture.


Lets start with the 4th commandment. How is it exactly we are to keep the sabbath holy? scripture’s only description of this is those that gather for specified instruction. Communion. Worship. = Church services. Then lets look at Acts 20:28. Okay? the church is of such importance that it described as purchased by Christ’s blood. And has what? Overseers (SP?).. these would be authority figures.. to have an authority would imply there is a submissive party, correct? And being that overseers is a physical office (unless you subscribe to polytheism) that submissive party is.. yes, the church. A physical church. who are the the church? its members. Are we to gain teaching? Gain edification? Communion? yes. This is only done in the body of believers. not independently from one another. 1 Corinthians talks about conduct and those who are “outside” and “inside” the church. 1 Corinthians clarifies even further when talking of the Body of Christ and making a distinction between us, communally and “members individually”. Membership can’t exist without organization to member to.. Ephesians 4:11 makes distinctions in office to the church. Apostles, Elders, teachers, evangelists.. this is a description of church government.


We have all been there and i am sypathetic to the idea that we dont NEED to attend church.. and this isnt to say we know those who are saved by their attendance. certainly there will be some on that last day (hopefully not me!)that were in attendance and His response will be “I never knew you”. But my response to that arguemnt, is with such emphatic, stressed teaching about submission (christ to the Father, A wife to her husband, Paul speaking to Timothy) how can anyone conclude that attendance to your local community of believers is anything other than obligitory.

Dennisthemenace () - August 09, 2004 at 5:10 pm

D-


It must be comforting to package God up in such a tidy box.


And yes, I’ve taken plenty of logic courses albeit not circular logic which you are quite well versed in. I have also taken literature and philosophy courses that taught me the difference between William Shakespeare and Rene Descartes. Yes, that may be a little harsh, but I didn’t start this fire.


Oh, and the Matrix, while I loved the film, is science fiction...


You may graciously have the last word on this topic because this end of the conversation is terminated since I couldn’t “feel” more ambivalent about it at this point.

todd () - August 09, 2004 at 5:29 pm

I think it was Billy Joel that said that other line.. no it was “we didnt start the fire”.. I know that one for sure! I sit corrected. Literature novice I am. I am familiar with who he is thought. Thanks for the correction. Obviously I ruffled feathers.. wasn’t my intention. I don’t see where my logic is circular, in fact I thought I was pretty clear. However, I remain open if you become more “feeling” oriented about it. The Matrix, yes is science fiction (or IS it?!) but the philosophical presupposition of the movie was quite deep… you obviously being educated, should have gotten my reference. sensation used to validate whats real…


I don’t write to get the last word (though being an only child it is inherent) but your comment on putting God in a box, for an educated person (you obviously are) I’d expect a better response. And more accurate. We were talking about feeling and its role in the spiritual being. Not God in a box. I’ll tell you what is packaged and mass produced for the masses: that accusation. Thats a common response without little if any Biblical basis (that I’ve heard). If God is unchanging, mandates conduct and commandments, even loves in specific ways, tells US how to love in specific ways… I begin to see a God with definition, character and unfailaing, unchangable love. Is this the box you’re referring to? Show me the scripture that says “Whatever a man feels is of God MUST be of God” then not only will you come up short but you STILL will be referring to the Bible (something concrete and not produced by emotions) to validate it, will you not?


I dunno dude. you got mad and even got in a few good jabs… that DesCartes/ Matrix jab combo was pretty good… but you made accusations of err in logic and left me hanging. Kinda disappointed.


I never, ever would claim that there is limit or lack in God’s power and sovereignty. I merely don’t see any scripture that attests that its verified by men’s hearts. I assume you’ll read this and THEN blow me off so I’ll part with this: This wasn’t attack. And argument perhaps but these are the arguemnts many have had for years with less “fire” resulting. Why can’t you do the same?
And I wasn’t aware that there was a fire… perhaps your temperment has changed but I’m involved in an exchange. that’s all. If that’s the fanning of flames for you… I apologize.

Dennisthemenace () - August 09, 2004 at 6:27 pm

P.S. Thus, because our senses sometimes deceive us, I would suppose that nothing is such as they make us to imagine it..-DesCartes


I’m not as think as you dumb i am.

Dennisthemenace () - August 09, 2004 at 6:34 pm

Man, I didn’t think that this simple Blog entry would generate so many…feelings! That’s good, I guess, but the funny thing is, I didn’t really even write it! I’d like to post this reminder that the original entry was just an excerpt from a much larger report that can be read in full at the link I provided in the original entry.


Also, I’d like to point us all back to an entry I made a few days ago:


http://sense-datum.org/tim/pivot/entry.php?id=62


I firmly believe what I wrote there.


I’d also like to suggest we all go and read some Psalms and ask ourselves if they would have ever been written had David never felt anything as an outcome of his love for God.

timsamoff () (URL) - August 10, 2004 at 07:16 am

Wow, this is quite the discussion. I thought I’d jump in with a few thoughts since Tim mentioned the discussion/debate at dinner last night.


First of all, I think this thing is completely out of control and a bit off topic from what the author of the article was trying to convey. From personal experience (is that bad?) I can say that I was drawn to Jacobs Well because of the “feel” of the service. I think the way that I described it though was the “spirit” of the service. I could tell that people were there because they wanted to be and that there was a vibrancy at the church that I had rarely experienced (felt?) before.


The comment that most caught my attention in this whole discussion was Dennis’ comment that “worship is touchy. I know cause (sic) I’m one of the musicians that makes it happen every Sunday.” I would venture to say that there is a difference between singing/listening to music and worship. While there is no doubt in my mind that many people use these as tools of worship, I would in no way suggest that “worship” is limited to this part of the church service. I would suggest that our entire lives should be acts of worship to our Saviour.


Now regarding the whole church thing. I think that suggesting that our method of “doing church” in the 21st century is a far cry from what we see in the history of the early church as recorded in Scripture.


While I don’t disagree that Scripture commands that we “forsake not the assembling of ourselves together” (sorry for the King James—but that’s all I know off the top of my head), I think that Tim’s point that fellowship of Believers can and does occur in far more places that a building that has been designated for such purposes. Furthermore, I would suggest that a life filled with fellowship with Believers and interaction with non-Believers can present us with far more opportunities to understand God than does a life lived in the isolation of a typical and regimented church existence.


Regarding “feelings,” I totally agree with Tim that as people created in God’s image we can’t deny our feelings. HOWEVER, our feeling must be interpreted in light of Scripture not the other way around. Could we describe our feeling as the “leading of the Holy Spirit”? Would that make it more palatable? Doesn’t Scripture talk about our spirits bearing witness to other people’s spirits (again thanks to King James for the awkward wording)? Is this nothing more than the common bond that we have as Believers in Christ and shouldn’t we rejoice in the feeling of the common bond that we have?


Anyway, I’ve said more than I intended to and will end now. This is an interesting discussion. Perhaps we can get the other Todd back into the discussion…

Todd Messenger () - August 10, 2004 at 4:10 pm

Well said, Todd M. I’m glad you added your piece of mind… I wish that some further discussion that Dennis and I had via e-mail was posted here. As well as our feelings being interpreted in light of scripture, we also spoke of the discernment provided by the Holy Spirit — the discernment to know which feelings are true and which ones aren’t, etc.


Anyone else want to chime in?

timsamoff () (URL) - August 10, 2004 at 4:20 pm

Thats pretty much what i was stressing. Amen my friend. That said, I still would take prepared fist to to anyone who makes a public statement regarding any church (especially mine cause it happened once hence my initial protest) based what they “felt”. But yes, Tim amd Todd M. it appears we are more in accord that discord. I did benefit from this. rock on.

Dennisthemenace () - August 10, 2004 at 5:23 pm

damn typos.

Dennisthemenace () - August 10, 2004 at 5:38 pm

I found this article rather interesting and thought you might all enjoy it. Curious as to Dennisthemenace’s thoughts on #4. Dennis seems more like Mr. Wilson in this discussion. I see him soberly attending church with a frown. I’m sure that’s not the case, however, and maybe he’s even a dancing church lady.


http://bgc.gospelcom.net/ise/RT2004/PDF%20Files%20for%20CD/mclaren.pdf

Paul Hensley () - August 11, 2004 at 4:04 pm

Hey, Paul. Interesting article. I’ll first say the Billy Graham Center isn’t the first place I would go for spiritual nutrition (mention of the Left Behind series is enough to me shake my head…or try talking about the Purpose Driven Life with me). Being that he’s dispensational, likely non-covenental, I already have apprehension about entertaining their literature. However, that being said, they are still members of the body and I did skim through it. #4? I assume you meant “Decreased church attentance”? Well, again, I don’t want to get misread here (literally). I do not state that the church is defined by it’s building, location or tithe amount. My argument was regarding attendance.. but anyway.. I want to say first off, I was somewhat happy to read that the author had a disgusting feeling regarding the advertisements of The Passion. Just for the record, it disgusts me too. I in no way condone that movie and feel it is a transgression of the 2nd commandment. Do I appear to be a frowning Mr. Wilson again? so be it, haha.


The article was cool. And it really did seem to actually stress some great points while leaving apprehensive about others. For instance, church being reduced to a social club. I so agree in so many other ways… then in others I am apprehensive without clarification from the author, to raise my hand with a hearty “Amen!!”. Only because there are so many instances where it is better to socialize with my church than say with my drinking buddies.. know what I mean? Yet, again I appreciate his remarks about the merchandising and entertainment used to globalize our Heaven. I agree. And I do feel strongly about Christians being attentive to their neighborhoods and residents residing in them. thats as far as I got.


And no, I don’t attend with a frown. I attend with a reverent attitude understanding that there are moments in which I receive (the sermon, communion) and moments I give (the worship, Sunday school)... However, ask anyone at my church about that Dennis guy and the first thing you might hear is about the jokes I sometimes crack under my breath during the sermon (i know, i know…) that keep my dear friends around me holding themselves together. Anyhow, thanks Paul. That was interesting.

Dennisthemenace () - August 11, 2004 at 6:20 pm

Hey Tim,


I won’t comment on the above comments (a bit much for light reading). I just wanted to say thanks for posting that link. Reading it made me miss JW. As you mentioned, it’s not really about feelings but about belonging to a community of believers. Even when you’re far away.
eml

Erica Lam () (URL) - August 12, 2004 at 02:47 am

Disclaimer: I as a man do not endorse emoticons and must have mistyped (me?!) and that was supposed to be a parenthises (sp?). Just wanted to note, as a man, I did NOT use an emoticon nor do I subscribe to the use of them in any situation. Thank you.

Dennisthemenace () - August 12, 2004 at 09:26 am

A note: People may be getting that impression, Dennis.

timsamoff () (URL) - August 12, 2004 at 09:34 am

Quite the discussion here over that one excerpt from an article. I read the entire article before reading this discussion. I didn’t get the sense at all that even the excerpt had anything to do with defining faith in terms of “feelings”. The author of the article was primarily pointing out that he’s basing his opinions of Jacob’s Well on a short visit—a first impression, if you will.

Ed Buffey () (URL) - September 20, 2004 at 1:28 pm

Ed, I actually agree with you. I read the article and Ed pretty much summed it up. In fact, the author has visited more emergent churches than just Jacob’s well.

Flashfrog - September 23, 2004 at 9:55 pm

As a Christian discipled in the context of African-american Christianity I cannot conceive of a worship sevice being feeling-less. There is an emotional component to worship. Worship, first and foremost, is supposed to invoke awe. If I am not mistaken ‘awe’ can be a feeling…and emotion. We are to love God, not just with our knowledge (justified true beliefs), but with all of our being…heart, soul, and body. We worship God with all of our created being. If the suggestion is that we check part of our selves at the door of worship, then I believe that would be Stoicism (or some lower form of Vulcanism)...not Christianity.

Ant

Anthony () - March 29, 2005 at 10:03 pm

Thanks for commenting, Anthony… Great thoughts!

timsamoff () (URL) - March 30, 2005 at 09:46 am

Ant,

To respond to your false impression question: “no”. the suggestion is not to check part ourselves at the door (however, i could argue in some contexts that even that is necessary). nor did i EVER say that it should be feeling-less. i challenge you to find that in my writing. However i challenge your view on worship. “to invoke awe”. Actually, i can appreciate the sentiment but i would challenge you find that definition in scripture. i would argue that worship in its active state (and of course depending on its context- mine being within a service on the Sabbath)is our focus on Him, not our feelings. However, i would never say (and i repeat myself here) that emotions can’t or don’t result from it. Its simply not the point.Obviously, how you “feel” about God will reflect in your attitude towards worship. but i ask you to re-read my post to understand me clearly. thanks.

dennisthemenace () - March 30, 2005 at 7:20 pm

P.S., if we were having this convo now, there ARE however, a few things i said i might think differently on or at least word differently….

dennisthemenace () - March 30, 2005 at 7:24 pm

And thanks for your response too, Dennis!

timsamoff () (URL) - March 30, 2005 at 9:29 pm