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July 06, 2007
The emerging Islam?
As a member of Emergent Village as well as having a vested interest in things pertaining to the emerging church, it isn’t hard for me to find connections with people of other faiths. In my eyes the holism of God’s creation is clear; the connection between humanity, the dirt we stand on, the air we breathe, the water we drink — everything — is axiomatic. So, the connection between two people (no matter what their faiths might be) should be simple, right?
Not always so. But, I digress…
No, really, all I wanted to do today was point you to an article that I heard on NPR this morning.
The article is about a Muslim man named, Hassan Butt, who was part of a major jihadi organization for many years — but, no longer. Now, he’s trying to help other radical muslims realize that the Koran (written only four hundred years before the Crusades) might not be entirely applicable in today’s culture. He’s trying to reinterpret the Koran in a more contemporary context… To try to find answers that apply to everyday life, not just an extremist movement.
So, to all of you emergers out there: Sound familiar?
Listen here.
And, if you found that interesting, read this too.
Posted at 09:38 am
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Comments (10):
To those who look at this in an overgeneralistic way I can see how it “sounds familiar”. That is why I personally don’t see it as a “connected” or “sounding familiar”. I personally try not to look at things in an “overgeneralistic way”.
dh () - July 09, 2007 at 09:41 am
This seems quite different to me…the two seem to operate on an entirely different premise, with an entirely different purpose. In as much, I find it hard to believe the “emerging islam” being described’s relationship with the status quo bears any semblance to that of the emerging church and the status quo.
As a side note—please notice that the Qu’ran was actually recorded hundreds of years before the Crusades.
As a side note—please notice that the Qu’ran was actually recorded hundreds of years before the Crusades.
de - July 09, 2007 at 2:20 pm
dh~ I’m not really following you here. For a number of different reasons.
de ~ I respectfully disagree with your first statement. When I listen to the article on NPR, I hear lots of similarities.
And, thanks for the correction on the origin of the Koran. I didn’t proof my post well enough. It has been changed.
de ~ I respectfully disagree with your first statement. When I listen to the article on NPR, I hear lots of similarities.
And, thanks for the correction on the origin of the Koran. I didn’t proof my post well enough. It has been changed.
timsamoff () (URL) - July 09, 2007 at 2:32 pm
Basically I was just saying the conclusion you have requires falling into an overgeneralization to agree with it. I understand that on the surface there may “appear” to be similarities but when scratches the surface and digs deeper it becomes an overgeneralization.
I agree with de and basically I understand that you see the similarities but in my opion to come to that conclusion requires believing an overgeneralization.
I agree with de and basically I understand that you see the similarities but in my opion to come to that conclusion requires believing an overgeneralization.
dh () - July 09, 2007 at 4:01 pm
This is interesting. So much so that I come out of the wood work to join in this conversation. But first let me say that I appreciate Mr. Samoff allowing this conversation on his blog.
This is not saying why I disagree but just making a point. The fact that there is One God and he made everything and in everything, everything takes place… doesn’t make me feel connected more with people of other faiths. In fact it almost separates me more from them. And not separated in a “I don’t get them” way but in a “there is One God and He is absolutely Holy way”.
I could agree that it emphasis the similarities of desire to be connected to the spiritual God has placed in us. Is that more what you meant? Of course this God being Jesus not Allah. :) Man I worded that badly. But even that point to me shows that we cannot relish that similarity while Muslims are being deceived. I hope any similarity that might be evident is ultimately used to show the work of Jesus. I say these things that may sound really strong/harsh but a very good friend of mine has been contemplating converting to Islam. She met a Muslim who currently lives in the UAE.
If the point your making was true would they say the same about us? And if not why?
Emergents seem to be getting away from the artificial (generally speaking) but would this be Muslims going towards the artificial and looking to somehow glaze over the flaws and defects of their faith?
What is the significance of pointing out that the Koran was “written only four hundred years before the Crusades”? Just curious
Good discussion and thanks again.
This is not saying why I disagree but just making a point. The fact that there is One God and he made everything and in everything, everything takes place… doesn’t make me feel connected more with people of other faiths. In fact it almost separates me more from them. And not separated in a “I don’t get them” way but in a “there is One God and He is absolutely Holy way”.
I could agree that it emphasis the similarities of desire to be connected to the spiritual God has placed in us. Is that more what you meant? Of course this God being Jesus not Allah. :) Man I worded that badly. But even that point to me shows that we cannot relish that similarity while Muslims are being deceived. I hope any similarity that might be evident is ultimately used to show the work of Jesus. I say these things that may sound really strong/harsh but a very good friend of mine has been contemplating converting to Islam. She met a Muslim who currently lives in the UAE.
If the point your making was true would they say the same about us? And if not why?
Emergents seem to be getting away from the artificial (generally speaking) but would this be Muslims going towards the artificial and looking to somehow glaze over the flaws and defects of their faith?
What is the significance of pointing out that the Koran was “written only four hundred years before the Crusades”? Just curious
Good discussion and thanks again.
randy () (URL) - July 09, 2007 at 5:39 pm
Ok, first… Do I really need to be so blunt as to say that I’m not trying to compare ideologies here? I’m certain that I didn’t mention that anywhere in the original post.
Regardless, I do think that Christians worship the same god as Muslims as much as we worship the same God as the Jews. I’ll leave it up to debate who is approaching God in the “correct” way (everyone here knows that that particular conversation would not be a short one), but nevertheless, we are all attempting to have a meaningful relationship with a supreme creator. (Right?)
dh ~ I don’t really know how to respond. Throughout the years you have proven to be an artful master at overgeneralization. I don’t necessarily consider this a bad thing all of the time, but it tends to be the case more times than not!
Randy ~ Thanks for showing your face! ;)
> Emergents seem to be getting away
> from the artificial…but would
> this be Muslims going towards
> the artificial…
This is a great question, Randy. There may be a lot of truth to it. But, if we are striving to find God, then regardless of the content of the bible (or Torah, or Koran), I still find great similarity in the quest to help people become better followers of Jesus or better followers of Allah.
I’m not saying that the latter is the “right” thing to do, just that I see similarities.
Concerning the period before the Crusades, please read what was going on in/near the Middle East at the time:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crusades#Hi..
Regardless, I do think that Christians worship the same god as Muslims as much as we worship the same God as the Jews. I’ll leave it up to debate who is approaching God in the “correct” way (everyone here knows that that particular conversation would not be a short one), but nevertheless, we are all attempting to have a meaningful relationship with a supreme creator. (Right?)
dh ~ I don’t really know how to respond. Throughout the years you have proven to be an artful master at overgeneralization. I don’t necessarily consider this a bad thing all of the time, but it tends to be the case more times than not!
Randy ~ Thanks for showing your face! ;)
> Emergents seem to be getting away
> from the artificial…but would
> this be Muslims going towards
> the artificial…
This is a great question, Randy. There may be a lot of truth to it. But, if we are striving to find God, then regardless of the content of the bible (or Torah, or Koran), I still find great similarity in the quest to help people become better followers of Jesus or better followers of Allah.
I’m not saying that the latter is the “right” thing to do, just that I see similarities.
Concerning the period before the Crusades, please read what was going on in/near the Middle East at the time:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crusades#Hi..
timsamoff () (URL) - July 10, 2007 at 07:35 am
Yeah I admit it. It is my tendency to defend the Truth. I can see your not trying to compare ideaologys but just trying to show human similarities. So how could I deny that?
I can’t agree completely with this point.
1. “-I do think that Christians worship the same god as Muslims as much as we worship the same God as the Jews.”
I know you are likely talking about how all three refer to Jewdaism as its roots. So for that point I understand. But what Islam says and what is true is two different things. Obviously. This is where I must point out a difference though. Jesus/God is a God of Justice. He is bound to covenants. Allah/God is a god of unjustice. The simple fact that you can choose to follow Allah, live a perfect life, and Allah can still send you to hell shows that they are in fact not similar. This is not even a “once saved always saved / security of the believer” issue. There is no security even if you are totaly devoted to Allah. It just shows that the attributes of God and the muslim god are so blatantly different. I can not associate the two. It is a very sad thing when your(islams) god can be categorized unequivocaly as unjust. And its even more sad when islams god doesn’t passionately seek you out even though we have agreed humanity seeks him(supreme creator) out.
I do however agree with your ultimate point, “we are all attempting to have a meaningful relationship with a supreme creator.” Not only can I not deny it but
I’ve actually read that crusades wiki before. What peice of it are you reffering to? And what the relevance? It is to long and its to early to read it now. :)
I can’t agree completely with this point.
1. “-I do think that Christians worship the same god as Muslims as much as we worship the same God as the Jews.”
I know you are likely talking about how all three refer to Jewdaism as its roots. So for that point I understand. But what Islam says and what is true is two different things. Obviously. This is where I must point out a difference though. Jesus/God is a God of Justice. He is bound to covenants. Allah/God is a god of unjustice. The simple fact that you can choose to follow Allah, live a perfect life, and Allah can still send you to hell shows that they are in fact not similar. This is not even a “once saved always saved / security of the believer” issue. There is no security even if you are totaly devoted to Allah. It just shows that the attributes of God and the muslim god are so blatantly different. I can not associate the two. It is a very sad thing when your(islams) god can be categorized unequivocaly as unjust. And its even more sad when islams god doesn’t passionately seek you out even though we have agreed humanity seeks him(supreme creator) out.
I do however agree with your ultimate point, “we are all attempting to have a meaningful relationship with a supreme creator.” Not only can I not deny it but
I’ve actually read that crusades wiki before. What peice of it are you reffering to? And what the relevance? It is to long and its to early to read it now. :)
randy () (URL) - July 10, 2007 at 09:21 am
Randy ~ Good points. Looks like something got cut off at the end, though… Sorry! (As, it may be my blog’s fault.) 
Crusades: The link I provided actually leads to the section that I’m referring to (i.e., it’s not just a link to the Crusades page on Wikipedia). The section is the history, starting at about the time that the Koran was written. It is pretty clear (to me anyway) that the period of time that the Koran was written was a very violent and unsettled period. If a “holy” book was written during times like these, the case can be made that the writing reflected the times.
So, it goes without saying that the Koran holds a pretty biased views against those who are trying to vanquish Islam.
Now, if you’ll listen to the NPR article, you’ll hear that Hassan Butt is attempting to teach people that some of the issues relayed in the Koran are not applicable to today’s age. This (to me again) is very similar to the way some of us are trying to read the bible today (e.g., with arguments about the roles of women in our faith, how people are suppossed to dress/act/worship, how people are supposed to look at crime and justice, etc.).
Crusades: The link I provided actually leads to the section that I’m referring to (i.e., it’s not just a link to the Crusades page on Wikipedia). The section is the history, starting at about the time that the Koran was written. It is pretty clear (to me anyway) that the period of time that the Koran was written was a very violent and unsettled period. If a “holy” book was written during times like these, the case can be made that the writing reflected the times.
So, it goes without saying that the Koran holds a pretty biased views against those who are trying to vanquish Islam.
Now, if you’ll listen to the NPR article, you’ll hear that Hassan Butt is attempting to teach people that some of the issues relayed in the Koran are not applicable to today’s age. This (to me again) is very similar to the way some of us are trying to read the bible today (e.g., with arguments about the roles of women in our faith, how people are suppossed to dress/act/worship, how people are supposed to look at crime and justice, etc.).
timsamoff () (URL) - July 10, 2007 at 09:58 am
Ok that makes more sense why you brough it up…
Randy () (URL) - July 10, 2007 at 10:06 am
I can’t help but notice how much this reflects events going on in my life. My most recent boyfriend, now just a roommate, is Christian – to some degree. He’s trying to figure out how to live his faith and be true to it. My major problem with it is the level of literal interpretation he takes. He hasn’t started living to the degree that he speaks about, but some of his beliefs just seem so antiquated. I half expect him to build me a special tent outside for that certain time so that my unclean female body doesn’t disrupt life. (I’m being a bit exaggerated, but that’s the type of thing I’m talking about.)
So, I found the fact that there is such a thing as ‘emergent Christians’ to be quite refreshing. I personally don’t follow a ‘faith’, per se, but I believe that Jesus had good teachings and that his way was good. Your comment, “we are all attempting to have a meaningful relationship with a supreme creator,” rings along with the idea, to my understanding, that most religions are also trying to follow a “good” way of life as well.
Somewhat sidetracked, but coming back to my point, I think that trying to figure out what writings were a result of their times and which are still applicable today is great. I hope that Hassan is successful in his quest to accomplish this and isn’t just tossed to the side like a ‘crazy liberal.’
Thanks!
Commenting has been permanently disabled. Please use the Contact button above.So, I found the fact that there is such a thing as ‘emergent Christians’ to be quite refreshing. I personally don’t follow a ‘faith’, per se, but I believe that Jesus had good teachings and that his way was good. Your comment, “we are all attempting to have a meaningful relationship with a supreme creator,” rings along with the idea, to my understanding, that most religions are also trying to follow a “good” way of life as well.
Somewhat sidetracked, but coming back to my point, I think that trying to figure out what writings were a result of their times and which are still applicable today is great. I hope that Hassan is successful in his quest to accomplish this and isn’t just tossed to the side like a ‘crazy liberal.’
Thanks!
jen () (URL) - July 25, 2007 at 7:05 pm
